Tuesday, July 14, 2009

My K-7 Hands On Test and Findings

A full production unit was tested and my observations and findings are as follows:-

Pros:-

1. Autofocus is fast (not with SDM, which is slow by itself): With the 18-55 WR kit lens, it has been able to track moving vehicles running at speeds at about 30 to 40 km/hr at middle to close distances. Used in conjunction with the Continuous Hi frame advance mode, the shooting rate can be kept at about 3 to 4 fps and the AF hit rate was high (only the Central Single AF point was selected for the test);

2. Shutter is very quiet (but not so smooth). Mirror action is very gentle, too;

3. Shutter lag is shortest for a Pentax DSLR ever (similar to Canon 5D but obviously still not as short as the D300 or 50D etc., nothing comparable to the EOS 1 series DSLRs);

4. Rigid, lightweight and compact body, well balanced in hands, very comfortable to hold for the grip - very good ergonomics;

5. Flash raised at a high position and pop-up action is smooth and gentle. The closed RTF is rigid and there is no play;

6. Auto WB accuracy and reliability seems to have been improved - the best amongst any Pentax DSLRs ever.

Cons:-

1. It does not feel metalic for the metal alloy body - very different from the MZ-S. Actually, Pentax can make it plastic as the metal alloy shell actually doesn't feel cold nor it has any metal feel and texture. The K-m might even feel better, IMHO;

2. Shutter/mirror action is not silky smooth as it can feel and heard for the "rough" moving sound;

3. Viewfinder is near 100%, but it is not that bright (even a F2.8 prime was mounted) and the magnification is not that high - Still some kinds of tunnel viewing effect is there, nothing comparably to Full Frame DSLR viewfinders;

4. The 77-segment metering is too conservative and too sensitive: It counts too much for the bright area(s) anywhere in the frame. Whenever there are highlights, even those areas are small and they are off-centre, the picture will be underexposed! (The K-m 16 segment metering works better!);

5. AF seems not to be as accurate as it should be, especially for an APS-C DSLR with that pixel count, which might contribute to the soft images obtained as resolution of even sharp optics are decreased (but not the main reason, I suspect, read more below);

6. The expensive WR kit lens is of low optical performance. Blurs are too obvious at corners near wide opened (not extreme corners). The image centre is not tack sharp neither, even at closed down;

7. Images are blurry, in-camera Jpegs are very soft throughout the frame;

8. Images are noisy, at least two stops disadvantages than the 5D and surely will be even more if it is compared to the current mainstream Full Frame DSLRs like the D700 and 5D MkII;

9. LCD display is always turned on "to ease operations" by default which is considered unnecessary but just a waste of battery power, especially considered this is an advanced classed camera, not an entry level one without top monochrome status LCD;

10. Mode dial unlock button hinder operations and is considered unnecessary. The button is small and turning mode dial whilst pressing it is somehow difficult;

11. Colours are a bit too saturated and somehow look unnatural than real even for the Natural image mode used, might be a result of underexposure which produces more saturated images. But it also seems that the Samsung CMOS sensor produces images that look less favourable than those Sony or Canon sensors (that can be somehow subjective anyway).

12. Video function is buggy, there is sudden flash (drastic change in exposure) for a short clip I recorded without any good reason. CDAF under LiveView / Video recording is damn slooow. It hunted a lot very slowly and sometimes even missed the focus and needed to search again.

13. The video quality of the movie is just so-so. I shot in 720p mode. What I have to say it is not better than the 848x480 H.264 Movie from my Casio Exlim S10 and I would say the playback of the S10 movies could just be smoother.

I suspect the reason for the Soft JPEGs is yet once again not because of inadequate processing power of the camera, but inherently a noisy sensor (the new Samsung one) of which the images it produces are needed for in-camera noise reduction and as a result the images are made soft. This is the same as what Photography BLOG's test shows: You could get Either Soft JPEGs Or Noisy RAWs (with details but together with noises), even at ISO 200, with the K-7. Trade-off and compromise have to be taken.

Okay, last but not least, here comes some sample images (100% Crops from in-camera Jpegs, 5D's ones further upscaled by 115% (in area) in IrfanViewer for almost the same viewing sizes, saved as lossless 24-bit BMPs):-

Camera / ISO
Scene 1
Image Centre
Scene 1
Image Corner
K-7 / ISO 100

5D / ISO 100
K-7 / ISO 200

5D / ISO 200
K-7 / ISO 400
5D / ISO 400
K-7 / ISO 800
5D / ISO 800
K-7 / ISO 1600
5D / ISO 1600

Camera / ISOScene 2
Image Centre
Scene 2
Image Corner
K-7 / ISO 100
5D / ISO 100
K-7 / ISO 200
5D / ISO 200
K-7 / ISO 400
5D / ISO 400
K-7 / ISO 800
5D / ISO 800
K-7 / ISO 1600
5D / ISO 1600

Remarks on the test conditions:-

K-7: Factory Default Settings, "Natural" Custom Image, Matrix Metering (No Exposure Compensation), ISO NR starts at ISO 800, Medium setting, AF-S with Central Single AF point selected, no frame re-composition after AF achieved, FA 28 (Photodo MTF Score 3.8) @ f/8;


5D: Factory Default Settings, "Faithful" Picture Style, Matrix Metering (No Exposure Compensation), no ISO NR, MF with Central AF point selected, no frame re-composition after focusing point measured, FA 43 (Photodo MTF Score 3.6) @ f/8.

Field/Angle of View of both Cameras are the Same.

I have repeated similar tests with my new K-m and the results against my 5D is not of such a huge difference! It verifies that the K-m produces sharper images with more details and less noise even for the same viewing/zoom-in sizes, with more favourable colour response, too. My Olive DAL kit lens is also way sharper than that WR version which triple the price of an ordinary DAL 18-55, too.

Btw, I shall do a more systematic shootout test and post the results later on - K-m Vs 5D, when I have the time. Update: Here is the test - K-m Vs 5D Pixel Peeping!

64 Comments:

Anonymous said...

What a load of...

Anonymous said...

I find this rather obscure. You write image center, but there is clearly chromatic abberation visible. The window has blue (left) and red (right) seams on the sides. There mus be something wrong with the lens or the AF. At ISO 100 I will refuse to believe that the K7 produces so much noise that it destroys the image. Come on!

schmuki said...

:) Thank you for this entertaining post. I think nobody here is surprised that you would bash the K-7 in your review, even though you've had it for only one hour :D

Of course the images of the K-m appear to be sharper; it has a much lower resolution so the weaknessess of the kit optics don't show so much.

Of course the viewfinder of a fullformat SLR is bigger. You will never get (with no brand!) a APS-C viewfinder as big as in a fullformat SLR. Simply physical constraints.

But I wonder: Do you even take pictures with your beautiful cameras, or do you only keep them because you're a technology freak? Or are you sitting in an office in Canon's marketing division just writing about cameras without ever really using them?

Anonymous said...

RH, more pictures and please put them in Flickr or similar place to look at exif's. Now nobody believes you :D

Anonymous said...

Rice, you confused centre and border. I don't know any lens that is weaker at the border than in the centre.

And come on, there is no noise visible in any of the crops you show so far. The softness much likely is the result of shooting with the kit lens wide open.

And I bet you used an expensive lens on your sponsored 5D.

But you did the job very well: You convinced yourself that the K-7 is definitely crap. It took you only about 30 posts of spreading mayhem over Pentax to get to that conclusion. Very good. Now please be happy with your Canon 5D and your Pentax K-m and live up to your promise, change your blog name to "RiceHigh Photographic gear" and write about all brands.

Either that, or be consequent and change your blog name to "Pentax Hater" and put some Canon ads on it. Your weakly disguised advertisements for Canon gear are just annoying and ruin Canon's reputation. I mean, if Canon needs to fund your primitive Pentax bashing then they must have serious problems, I'm afraid.

RiceHigh said...

Well, all I've posted are real but just believe it or not! No one forces you or anyone to read my blog or even believe what I write!

But just don't regret and remorse just in case you don't believe me and finally get a K-7 and see the same!

Anonymous said...

Well some people who got and tested the K-7 speak admirably of it... or they are fanboys?

Anonymous said...

> Well, all I've posted are real but just believe it or not!
But even your humble 5D seems to produce sharper images at the border than in the centre. Please check again.
And please tell us which lens you used on your 5D for the above pictures. It's much more likely that the lens is soft than some invisible noise at ISO 100 that degrades IQ.

Come on, get a life.

Anonymous said...

RH greetings from Canon marketing department, well done ;)

Anonymous said...

The image centre and corners seem to be at different angles.

Can you post the original full frame views Rice?

Thanks.

I need to make up my mind between Canon Nikon and Pentax within the near future.

Test blog said...

Thanks RH!

It's most encouraging to hear from _you_ that AF-C tracking is good :D This is one of the greatest question marks above the K-7 IMO and there are too few accounts on it in the forums. However, contrary to most reports, you are disappointed by the AF accuracy, which puzzles me a little.

Can you PLEASE elaborate more on the AF performance of the K-7 (in a new blog post)? In particular I'll appreciate it if you relate to:
1. AF-S accuracy in various light temperatures (including the dreaded "yellow" tungsten). Is the Tungsten FF shift nightmare finally over? BTW How does the K-m perform in this regard?
2. AF-S hunting and locking speed, especially in low light.
3. AF illuminator effectiveness.
4. AF-C tracking effectiveness. Is it predictive? Does it follow the subject across different AF sensor points?
5. Regarding all of the above points, how does the K-m compare?

Thanks in advance! I'm eating my fingernails to death waiting for detailed feedback on the K-7 AF, but the forums are now occupied by boring ISO wars...

Noam

Anonymous said...

it's the funniest test I've ever seen.

Anonymous said...

How does the k-m handle with MF and/or non-A lens? Also for AF lenses, is center point AF fast enough, even in low light?

Anonymous said...

Ah, thanks to RH we now have the insider's tip of the year: The K-m beats the K-7!

What a steaming pile of cr*p!

Garfield said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
RiceHigh said...

Noam, I think the AF is Okay, both Single and Continuous. The tracking is Okay, although it is not as fast as Canon and Nikon, actually not really on a par with my 5D with (Ring) USM lenses, but it is already the best ever in the Pentax land, IMHO.

Anonymous said...

THE FANBOY'S LAMENT

Oh, give me a home
Where Ricehigh don't roam
And my Pentax works just like it should

Ricehigh does tests
But he's just a pest
'Cause he says that K-7's no good

He went out and shot
With a camera that's hot
And the other took pictures just fine

So he has to be wrong
That's the point of this song
Couldn't be that ol' Pentax of mine

Anonymous said...

Rice High, then sink to the bottom.

Anonymous said...

Thanks for the review.You helped me realize how bad the image quality is on the K-7 and on the Canon 5D.After seeing your results I will now be placing an order for the Hasselblad
H3DII kit with the 80mm f/2.8 lens from New York.Its amazing anyone could do any serious photography with either camera!

Marion said...

you are so pathetic...
witch lens did you use for both ?
do i have to remember you that the lens is the most important for quality image ?
stop your stupid tests , go take some real pictures and get a life...
you are trying tu convince yourself and everybody that pentax sucks...bad news...your suck...

Anonymous said...

Thanks, RH,

The photos are very helpful and do show there are key differences between the "styles" of Canon and Pentax though you tried to show Canon's photos are sharper.

I don't know the real reasons for the soft K7 photos but people I know using K7 do not have such issues (though image quality is more or less the same as K20D). A better way to test the sharpness of the cameras would be to compare a non-Pentax APS-C with a K7 both equipped with the same lens.

As far as I can tell, color reproduction/details are much stronger in the pentax photos and you can almost feel the texture of the buildings & the windows (top series) while the canon's version is rather "flat" despite it is sharper and I don't think any adjustment with the exposure would help. Similar effects appear in the 2nd batch of the photos (building from a distance)

Canon is known for its portrait taking capabilities and there is a reason for that, somehow Canon intentionally omits the "texture" of the object as not many models have perfect shapes. If one is using a Leica, Carl Zeiss (German versions), Pentax or Nikon taking portraits, the models better look really beautiful, otherwise these systems would expose their weaknesses.

The sharpness issue can easily be tackled with using a different lens or aperture ratios (if one thinks sharper photos are always better). The stylistic colour tone & texture are not so simple. I am an old-school photographer and I prefer photos that can show the perspective of an object.

However, I do appreciate the stylistic differences in Pentax and Canon, which both have their own practicality and that's exactly the reasons why there should be choices of different systems.

Anonymous said...

What a pathetic response. No evidence to rebut; but a lot of name-calling instead.

RE: "do i have to remember you that the lens is the most important for quality image?"

=================

(No; but you could "remind" us)

Strange, that's exactly what Ricehigh said about the normal zoom:

http://ricehigh.blogspot.com/2009/07/k-7-failed-my-test-so-ive-bought-this.html

"Surprisingly, I have also found that my Olive DAL 18-55 Kit Lens is obviously sharper than the DA 18-55 WR which I tested."

Anyone reading this blog would run off and buy a Canon, just so that they would no longer have to read this schoolyard stuff.

What's really odd is that many of the posters did not buy the K20D, but stuck with 1stD and assorted 6 MP cameras. Pentax has always had a problem getting their "loyal base" to buy a better body - they were too busy getting lenses duplicating the focal range that they already had.

Now they're stuck with those lenses, and are faced with the fact that Pentax is charging $1300 for capabilities you could buy for $500 less, in a different mount.

Pentax had the same problem itself with the K20D launch body-only for $1300, at the same time as Sony came out with its first dual-Live-View cameras for $500 less at the same show. History repeats itself.

The good news now is that the K20D is far cheaper than it was.

Samsung is holding back the GX-30 after the initial leak, so just wait 2 months for that. It will be an interesting comparison to K-7, because Samsung will do its own firmware.

Since Pentax revised (or replaced?) the sensor on the K-7, and admitted problems, none of this comes as a surprise to me. Samsung might even be holding back GX-30 for a different sensor batch; whereas K-7 was committed to a firm launch date.

If this is worth $1300 to you, step up and buy it. The proof will be in the sales. Sony launched the A700 to attract the
A100 owners, and after an initial pop, sales slid sharply. And they HAD an ad budget. That body just got discontinued.

Anonymous said...

RH should seriously get some psychiatric treatment. What I observe in his blog is a typical case of maniodepressive psychosis combined with deep obsession. First he is so maniacaly excited about that k-7 or whatever it is, then gradually getting into depression, trying to destroy anything related to it.
I will recommend this blog to some psychiatry students to learn from it.

Anonymous said...

Funny - what I see from other posts is some issues of people relating to a company that no longer exists, except as a brand now owned by some other party; and people talking up a loyalty to that earlier company that lost its position prior to its own management's incompetence, and the failure of some of those very posters to buy the later bodies that Pentax relied on for revenue.

Ideally, those new bodies WOULD have caused current owners to step up to the later lenses; and without the body sales, the impetus for those newer lens sales likewise vanished; since the lens' benefit would have been limited to the later model bodies.

"Borderline Personality Disorder and Abandonment"

(and I'm not a pro shrink)

"The perception of impending separation or rejection, or the loss of external structure, can lead to profound changes in self-image, affect, cognition, and behavior. These individuals experience intense abandonment fears and inappropriate anger even when faced with a realistic time-limited separation or when there are unavoidable changes in plans (or a camera that's not as promised). These abandonment fears are related to an intolerance of being alone and a need to have other people with them."

(Nikon and Canon have over 80 percent of DSLR sales; the hybrids are successful with Amazon trying to get $2500 for the GH1; and all of the major makers are publishing timelines through at least 2010. Sony, with sensor-shift, could hit 10 percent of DSLR sales through sheer agression)

http://photorumors.com/

See the Sony article - that would take care of the newbies insisting on sensor-shift.

---------------

(In this case, the understandable sense of loss when they see their team losing; and the denial that the competition has therefore won the game - compounded by some large investment in lenses that COULD in future be dead-ended in terms of body development)

My feeling is that Samsung has too much to gain from PK to see the mount go south, and will, on their own, develop better PK cameras.

On the other hand, what disturbs me is that Samsung's own sensor and associated firmware caused Pentax itself to declare a problem with the K-7 (NOT Ricehigh). He's not the one that told magazines to hold reviews for retests - and in a fast-moving world with new camera models flying out of plants, getting the reviewers to drop everything to retest is asking an awful lot.

Anonymous said...

(Roland is someone very well connected to Pentax, and a most reliable source - and a dead-on realist on Pentax. We've had some cross-discussion on the DPREVIEW Samsung forum, and our conversations have been completely civil - I look for his DPREVIEW posts, matter of fact)

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1036&message=32228880

(My own feeling is that there was more to it; and he's duly recounting what Pentax told him - so I would blame the source, and not Roland)

This was some followup elsewhere:

http://www.1001noisycameras.com/2009/06/pentax-k7-modified-sensor-in-the-production-units-lets-all-hit-the-reset-button.html

Amateur Photographer UK has some breaking news on the Pentax K7. The production and generally available version of the Pentax K7 will have a modified sensor. AP UK has decided to delay their K7 review until they receive and evaluate a production-level camera.

So this may be a good time to hit the "reset" button as far as image-quality is concerned.

This of course raises the question, what are the modifications to the sensor, and why were they made? For speculations on that, be sure to check the various Pentax forums!

Anonymous said...

More Samsung conference leaks:

(quote)

I read a comment related with this thread.

Below is the source web page.

http://www.slrclub.com/bbs/vx2.php?id=newproduct_samsung&no=818

It is Korean Web Site. I will translate what I read as usual.

I went to the exhibition today (July 14).

I heard from Samsung Imaging representative today that NX-10 will be available to customers on November. NX-10 displayed on July 7 is pre-production model and is not completed one.

It has VGA level EVF. The rear display quality is really good and it seems to have more than 920K pixels (should be AMOLED?).

There was a 24x zoom high-end camera (Model : WB5000) in the exhibition.

Also, he mentioned new compact camera, and it will be a camera could only exist in your imagination. He said it is a camera might be seen in SF movies. It is totally different from existing compact digital cameras. He said it has 2 parts while normal compact cameras usually have only 1, but he didn't say no more what it is. (Obviously, it is classified.)

NX and new digital camera will be announced around August.

Also, Samsung is working on successor of GX-20.

Falk Lumo said...

RH,

Oh My God ...

Let me assume that your testing wasn't flawed (despite the short time you had to carry it out). Then I must conclude that the kit lens had a defect, and/or the K-7 AF didn't work properly.

All I can say is that your camera isn't like the one I tested for 4 weeks.

Anonymous said...

More from Samsung - and my advice to PK loyalists is to keep an eye on the GX-30 - the Pentax ordeal has given them a heads-up on their OWN sensor, and the NEED to get that right before announcing it. With the NX and all their other products coming, and good revenue flow, they have no reason to race the GX-30 out:

Another Korean news web has comment about new products in second half of this year.

http://www.newspim.com/...sub_view.php?cate1=1&cate2=9&news_id=240796

----- (quote) -----

There are 3 new cameras which Samsung Electronics and Samsung Imaging co-developed will be available on the market on August 09. They are developed with new concept and have very different features and design from existing compact cameras. Local dealers also fed back very positive responses about them.

-----

I think the high-end camera will be the one of them.

Anonymous said...

RE: Then I must conclude that the kit lens had a defect, and/or the K-7 AF didn't work properly.

============

THAT's what an adult response looks like. I'm confident that Ricehigh can change PK lenses and see if THAT's the problem.

But as Falk indicates, there likely IS a problem!

Anonymous said...

Yawn. What GX30? That rumor is made up, an imaginary camera with a single purpose: to "beat" the K-7. Well, I guess for some people an imaginary camera can beat a real one...
The sensor change was just using a production version instead of pre-production samples. There is no information that indicates otherwise. There is no information about a "last minute change", no matter all the hysteria on the 'net. Pentax didn't admitted to have problems with this sensor, they just said "wait, those pre-production cameras uses pre-production sensors, but the production cameras will have production sensors, doh!" - or something on this line.
And Pentax is no more? Dream on... they're pretty much alive, they just changed their owners.
But hey, such ideas are in the spirit of this blog, so what the heck...

About the "test", well, it's done with a purpose: to make Pentax "lose". Can you trust such a "test"?
Next, there are obvious issues: very different lenses, FF vs APS-C, center vs corner sharpness etc. Again, can you trust such a "test"?

Chris said...

"Let me assume that your testing wasn't flawed (despite the short time you had to carry it out). Then I must conclude that the kit lens had a defect, and/or the K-7 AF didn't work properly."

I thought he tested the K7 with an FA 28mm against the 5D, not the kit lens?

Anonymous said...

Fan-bot Propaganda Department

Since some act like the Borg, let's just call them fan-bots:

Yawn. What GX30? That rumor is made up, an imaginary camera with a single purpose: to "beat" the K-7. Well, I guess for some people an imaginary camera can beat a real one...

========================

The camera is real, but NX comes first.

The next link was the origin of the published specs, and officially Samsung is saying nothing about PK - as they want your attention on the NX, which should arrive with a PK adapter. But:

------

"So (NX)is a new mount, smaller. Will it be compatible with the K mount used on your current DLSRs?
As far as I understand it will be, using an adaptor. That's part of the plan.

We couldn't get a clear answer on whether such an adaptor ever allow autofocus - or even aperture control - with K mount lenses, though it would seem that AF with any lens without a built in motor would be nigh-on impossible."

---------------

http://photorumors.com/2009/06/28/samsung-gx30-specifications-built-in-gps-double-sd-slots-amoled-display/

IMO this was a planned leak - but Pentax would have to prove it. Samsung has said nothing specific of consequence on PK for about a year, aside from some PMA interview comments (at the bottom)

There's nothing on that GX-30 list that they cannot do - they are already using AMOLED. GPS and extra slots would be no problem in their own body.

From my last reference to a conference leak:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1001&message=32397463

"Also, Samsung is working on successor of GX-20."

-----------

Since you're the one refuting - PROVE IT THAT THEY'RE NOT DOING THE GX30.

Pentax would not stand by and let Samsung talk about a competing camera if that competitor did not actually exist. Pentax counts on brand-loyalty to get you to buy the Pentax-branded, regardless.

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0903/09031301_samsunginterview.asp

I'm sure you won't want to answer this question, but does this mean that you're abandoning the 'full size' reflex camera system?

The market exists in three different form factors at the moment. One is the existing DLSR, second is compact, and hybrid is emerging. We will not abandon the DSLR market, we will just focus more on the hybrid form factor.

We ask because there's not been a Samsung equivalent of several recent Pentax DSLRs.

We simply want to focus our energies on our own hybrid first.

(Do you know what FIRST means?)

Anonymous said...

RE: I thought he tested the K7 with an FA 28mm against the 5D, not the kit lens?

--------------

You are correct, so let's hope that Falk Lumo responds to that point. Testing a prime instead of a zoom makes sense, but Ricehigh's first comments were about the kit zoom.

Anonymous said...

RE: The sensor change was just using a production version instead of pre-production samples. There is no information that indicates otherwise.

=============

It gets more complicated than your use of the word "just". Look at what Roland said:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1036&message=32228880

"Pentax UK found out about the mistake and informed the reviewers that the cameras on loan was not a production unit, it was in fact a pre-production unit WITH PRE-PRODUCTION HARDWARE and pre-production sensor, and when the reviewers asked what the difference was between the pre-production units and the production units - Pentax UK replied with that AMONG the differences was a tuned sensor for better high ISO performance."

I capitalized key words to increase comprehension. AMONG the differences is not "JUST" anything.

My own suspicion is that it was a firmware update, and some other things as well.

http://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk/news/Amateur_Photographer_delays_Pentax_K7_review_news_284834.html

However, Pentax UK has since revealed that the final version of the K7 available to consumers will -INCLUDE- an altered sensor. A spokeswoman for Pentax confirmed that AP is right to wait for the full-production model.

The magazine's technical department explained that it will not be testing the K7 DSLR 'until a full retail unit is available so that our tests accurately reflect what readers can expect.'

Anonymous said...

Unfair play.
FA28 at K-7 at f8.
FA43 at 5D at f8.
DOF is different.

FA28 is one of the weakest lenses even at 10 MP.
FA43 is one one the sharpest lens in the world.

Anonymous said...

The comparision is lamer's work.
Idiotic. Rice discredits himself.
Different lenses, different exposure, different DOF.
But, I don't see that K-7 is noisier than 5D. :)))))

Anonymous said...

How about comparing the K7 with a camera you can still get for #1, and one that has the same size sensor #2.What next the K7 vs. P60+ back?

Sheesh!

Anonymous said...

>Since you're the one refuting - PROVE IT THAT THEY'RE NOT DOING THE GX30.

No kidding. You're throwing some obviously bogus camera in my face, and it's *my* task to prove that it's bogus? What kind of logic is that? (a Ricehigh fanboy's logic, probably...)
No, no, no, the burden of proof it's only yours. Show me anything else than the photorumors site (which is not known for accuracy, btw) to support that made-up rumor. Until then, I'll believe we'll see no GX30 - as described on photorumors. No, a re-labelled K-7 doesn't count.

>It gets more complicated than your use of the word "just".
Using a single word from what I say, now that's taking out of context! What's wrong with it's usage? I was talking specifically about using a different sensor, I didn't excluded any other hardware change.
Those links only prove my point of view. It's the difference between pre-production (months old) and production hardware, and not a last minute, desperate attempt to "fix" the sensor as the likes of RH surely would like to believe.

Anonymous said...

RE: Unfair play.
FA28 at K-7 at f8.
FA43 at 5D at f8.
DOF is different.

But the target would seem to be at infinity on those lenses, which have deep enough DOF anyway.

For that test, I would have used a hyperfocal scale and put infinity just within the "far" distance on that lens (primes generally still have hyperfocal scales - right?).

Your DOF comment is the usual straw-man stuff. With these focal lengths at that (apparent) distance, using AF might just prove that you should just set the distance scale manually, and be done with it.

Ricehigh - how far away was the building?

=============================

FA28 is one of the weakest lenses even at 10 MP.

FA43 is one one the sharpest lens in the world.

I will let Ricehigh answer as to his choice of lenses - perhaps that's all he thought was a close enough match that he owned, but any lens should have handled that at f/8.0. Perhaps he had sensor-shift working on the K-7? I would ask that he turn that anachronism off, and try again, just in case. He did not give a shutter speed, but the day seemed sunny, so the sunny-16 rule should work as well as metering - but I would open up 1/2 stop if part of the building were in shadow.

I use a digital Gossen Flash/Ambient Meter on incident setting for my readings, by the way. Perfectly consistent to 1/10th of a stop.

Anonymous said...

RE: No kidding. You're throwing some obviously bogus camera in my face, and it's *my* task to prove that it's bogus?
===============

Why not get your fingers busy and tell Canon, Nikon and Sony that all of those "futures" that they've announced don't exist?

Samsung has made it clear that they will follow up the GX-20.

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0903/09031301_samsunginterview.asp

I'm sure you won't want to answer this question, but does this mean that you're abandoning the 'full size' reflex camera system?

The market exists in three different form factors at the moment. One is the existing DLSR, second is compact, and hybrid is emerging.

WE WILL NOT ABANDON THE DSLR MARKET

- we will just focus more on the hybrid form factor.

We ask because there's not been a Samsung equivalent of several recent Pentax DSLRs.

WE SIMPLY WANT TO FOCUS OUR ENERGIES ON OUR OWN HYBRID FIRST.

I put it in CAPS, just for you. Do you need a map? Wake up, and smell the competition.

Anonymous said...

Here's what you actually said:

"The sensor change was just using a production version instead of pre-production samples. There is no information that indicates otherwise."

----

Pentax said:

"Pentax UK found out about the mistake and informed the reviewers that the cameras on loan was not a production unit, it was in fact a pre-production unit WITH PRE-PRODUCTION HARDWARE and pre-production sensor, and when the reviewers asked what the difference was between the pre-production units and the production units - Pentax UK replied with that AMONG the differences was a tuned sensor for better high ISO performance."

---------------

" ... it was in fact a pre-production unit WITH PRE-PRODUCTION HARDWARE !!!and!!! pre-production sensor ... "

That means that there were MORE COMPONENTS than the sensor involved.

AMONG THE DIFFERENCES (plural) means that there were more differences than one.

If you come back in your next life as a camera accessory, it will be as a fog filter.

Anonymous said...

>I put it in CAPS, just for you. Do you need a map? Wake up, and smell the competition.

Don't be rude, boy. Rudeness won't get you nowhere.
The photorumors.com's GX30 won't come up, period. No matter how much you wish the K-7 "beaten" or Pentax "dead".
FYI, many of photorumors "leaks" won't come true - as they are bogus or made up. Happened in the past, will happen in the future.
I expect, though, at least another Samsung DSLR; maybe even called GX30. But not that BS "rumor".

And how many times should I tell you, that I never said only the sensor was changed? Can you read, or you learned only to write?
Fog filter? Lol, that's what you're using, when "reading" my post...
Go and play elsewhere. Wait, don't. A blog like this is the perfect place for someone like you.

Paul said...

Well...
If this post is supposed to demonstrate the superiority of the 43 limited over the FA 28, it worked. But most of us were already convinced ;)

Seriously if you want to make pixel-peeping comparisons, you should shoot at least:
-use the same lens
-shoot raw or tiff (to eliminate jpeg artifacts)
-deactivate stabilization


Best,
Paul

Anonymous said...

Would you like to compare your 5D to a 50 Mpx Hasselblad? I am sure it would not hold.

Anonymous said...

Why do you put f8 with APC-S and FF cameras? :)
The same ISO, but different exposure.
Only lamer can make such comparision.
And What do you compare?
FA28 and FA43? :)))

Anonymous said...

It verifies that the K-m produces sharper images with more details and less noise even for the same viewing/zoom-in sizes, with more favourable colour response, too. My Olive DAL kit lens is also way sharper than that WR version which triple the price of an ordinary DAL 18-55, too.
___________________
Words of cretin

Anonymous said...

How stupid to compare FA 43mm lens (top-notch) on 5D with FA 28mm (mediocre at best). Comparing APS-C with FF is ludicrulous nonetheless.

Another proof that RH is making false claims and behaving rather silly. Who takes this guy serious? Anyone left?

Anonymous said...

Fanboy says:

It clear that it Pentax lens not sensor problem.

Not focus on the infinity methinks.

Funny Ricehigh detect banding in LCD display but not focus issue.

Banding on SP coating?

Dirty filter?

Filthy filter?

Ricehigh to investigate?

Anonymous said...

I own a KM and a K-7 and this is just silly. The KM must have been low enough cost so he could own one and say I still shoot Pentax for this blog. After the K-7 has been out for awhile it will be clearer that this is just Ricehigh trying to make the camera match what he wants to see.

Anonymous said...

Don't be rude, boy. Rudeness won't get you nowhere.

(I guess you mean "anywhere"; but close enough for Government work)

The photorumors.com's GX30 won't come up, period. ..... I expect, though, at least another Samsung DSLR; maybe even called GX30. But not that BS "rumor".

-------------

The specs given are probably over 90 percent the same as the K-7. Why is this far-fetched? Because you did not get a message on your trusty Pentax decoder ring that was hidden in your K100D box?

So you expect a Samsung DSLR; and since the last was GX-20, the next MIGHT be GX-30. And instead of marketing an improved clone of K-7, they're going to build an entirely new body for their 1 percent PK DSLR market share?

An old joke bob Newhart told about Lincoln, when notified that General Grant was a drunkard:

"Find out what he's drinking, and send a case to my other generals"

Anonymous said...

>The specs given are probably over 90 percent the same as the K-7. Why is this far-fetched?

You are getting even sillier, how's that possible?
It's bogus (not far-fetched but bogus, fake, made-up) because the specs are made-up to be just a bit better than the K-7. Would Pentax make two new 100% viewfinders, the better for a Samsung camera, the other for their own? Would Pentax develop two new AF systems, an entirely new one for a Samsung camera, an improvement over the existing SAFOX for their own? What kind of partnership is that, when one partner (the one with 1% market share, that's if they have 1%) want to kill the other?
I call this bullsh*t. But it suits you, next thing you'll probably claim Pentax will gladly make those cameras, in the Philippine factory...

No, you childish one (google searching for quotes won't help you, btw, you're still childish). The "GX30", the real next Samsung camera, will not be designed to beat the K-7. Yet it will share most of the technologies with the current Pentax cameras (no matter what ideas you'd like to put in my mouth), so, probably SAFOX VIII+ AF system, at most the K-7 viewfinder and other specs adjusted (to reality) as well. It could be even a K-7 clone, who knows? Or maybe a lesser model, as Samsung seems to want to concentrate their efforts into the NX system.

P.S.It's a proven fact that photorumors collect anything thrown on the internet, and not only reliable rumors (where is the K-7 EVF, I might ask?). Why on Earth should I believe this fake? Why on Earth are you so desperately defending a rumor without an even remotely reliable source?

P.P.S. I don't own a K100D. Do you have a K200D or something like that, and want to feel superior? how childish...

tmt said...

Ok, I think this "review" was really helpful, for me at least :)

1. K7 shots at high ISO were slightly underexposed, so the noise will be more visible under these circumstances, but K7 kept a really good IQ at 1600 :)

2. 5D is a full frame camera, so the shots will be sharper (less sensor in the same area), but K7 100% crops were really acceptable :)

3. 5D is a way expensive camera.

Assume this: you can buy a K7 for less, and have nearly the same image quality. :)))

Anonymous said...

And don't forget, you can always put a better lens on the K-7. Hmm... like a 43mm Limited? :)

RiceHigh said...

My FA 28 prime is a very good lens, haven't you read my latest test with the same lens on the K-m Olive? It gives the 5D with the FA 43 limited on it a hard time actually!

So, what is the real problem? Where is the weakest link??

I have used most of my dozens of Pentax lenses for years and decades and I knew them very well for their performances, no matter on film, on APS-C or on FF!

Anonymous said...

(More straw-man crap)

RE: Would Pentax develop two new AF systems, an entirely new one for a Samsung camera, an improvement over the existing SAFOX for their own? What kind of partnership is that, when one partner (the one with 1% market share, that's if they have 1%) want to kill the other?

============

The so-called OIS for Samsung GX-30 is not what the world knows as "OIS" - the "O" represents "OPTIMAL" instead of "OPTICAL". Check Google; and there is no such thing as "OPTIMAL Image Stabilization". Probably a translational error. Samsung does have electronic stabilization, as does Olympus in the EP-1 for movies, and as does Panasonic.

Samsung is not dependent on Pentax for technology, as their newly announced compact cameras and 12 MP cell phones demonstrate. AMOLED is one such advance that Samsung makes use of already. If you actually knew what Samsung already has, this foolish argument about what PENTAX provides, and what SAMSUNG provides, would not be taking place. Samsung is not dependent on Pentax, as they clearly stated in terms of the NX:

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0903/09031301_samsunginterview.asp

"So is this (NX) something that you're developing completely independently of Pentax?

Yes. The lenses, sensor, processor, display - everything comes from Samsung."

===========

Samsung has consistently demonstrated that they don't care about PK's future, and has not tagged along with Pentax' prediliction for "niche" marketing. Samsung, like Sony, aims far higher in terms of both products and volume. Sony is leveraging their existing FF sensor sales to reduce costs for their FF bodies. Samsung has an FF sensor, likely as part of the Pentax deal - but where are Samsung's customers for such a sensor, other than Pentax?

Within the industry, the Samsung APS-C sensor problems are probably being viewed as something that the NX needs to rectify upon its release. People read about K-7 sensor changes from Pentax, and think "Samsung"; because it's their sensor.

Until that's out of the way, Samsung will park the GX-30 on the shelf as a distraction from the NX launch, where they see their real future.

Unfortunately, I see the Pentax brand in an inevitable state of decline that cannot be offset by a generally improving DSLR sector growth. The DSLR competition from Sony, on top of Nikon and Canon, cannot be dealt with. With FF dropping in price, APS-C will inevitably be squeezed, even by APS-H - and from below by the 4/3 bybrids.

Sometimes, there's just nowhere else to go ... and I blame the old Pentax BOD for creating the conditions leading up to this.

Anonymous said...

Rice, FA28/2.8 is the weakest 28 mm lens Pentax ever made.
It's silly to compare FA43 and FA28.
I owned several 28 mm lenses and I can say that FA28 is far behind K28/3.5 and old F28/2.8.

It's rather weak in terms of resolution and contrast. I used FA28 with *ist D - not bad, but FA28 is weak at K10D and K20D.

RiceHigh said...

"Weak"? How weak? Have you yet read THIS and the evidence?? (that shows that the FA 28 is a very sharp lens)

Further go to Photodo and you will soon find out that the FA 28 is the *sharpest* 28mm lens Pentax *ever* made!

tigrebleu said...

FA 28mm F/2.8 is not renowned for its sharpness... You just cannot compare that with a FA 43mm, which is one of the sharpest lenses Pentax ever made (except wide open).

The FA 28 is a rather weak, soft lens (improves when stopped down, but still no better than a digital-specific kit zoom lens) that has a weaker center than its border (which can explain the softer center seen on your samples).

How about testing the K-7 with a FA 31? Could you do that?

Sure, the FOV would be slightly different, but at least, that would leave NO doubt on the sharpness of the K-7 JPEGs. If it's soft with the FA 31, I'll abide with your findings. Right now, I'm all but convinced.

Cheers,

Anonymous said...

Um, this is what we call subjective journalism.

Take the high ISO shots of what already looks like a poor image (seriously, was that shot through a screen door or something?). Do you really expect the K7 to keep up with the noise performance of a full frame camera such as the 5D? How about a less biased comparison, like breaking out the 50D or the T1i, to see how thoroughly trounced they get at higher ISO.

I'm not convinced. I've played with the K7 with both the 18-55WR and a DA* 16-50, and the kit lens keeps up surprisingly well, though obviously it's not going to outgun a $900 piece of glass. I didn't encounter the metering issue you've mentioned, where the matrix metering brought down the exposure to compensate for highlights. Even if it did, would this not be a desirable trait? There's too many ugly digital pictures out there with blown highlights already.

Let's see the EXIF. I say we call a rematch. 50D vs. K7, each with a kit lens, and see what we get.

Γιωργος Παστρικος said...

"13. The video quality of the movie is just so-so. I shot in 720p mode. What I have to say it is not better than the 848x480 H.264 Movie from my Casio Exlim S10 and I would say the playback of the S10 movies could just be smoother."

The quality of the movie is just so-so?
What a jerk!
See this video:
http://www.vimeo.com/5520766

Hate_Idiots said...

Hey, the Japanese love RICE.... Why don´t they eat up this guy ??????

Rice, my boy, I told you once, start writing about sex..
Don´t you like sex? Have you tried?

Well, just try, I love it !!!!!

Anonymous said...

Don´t you like sex? Have you tried?

Well, just try, I love it !!!!!

================

You can spot a 1-handed typist every time ...

Anonymous said...

LOL

Anonymous said...

I recently purchased a K-7. It has serious focusing issues, which I initially confused with lens problem until I tested the same lens on my old *ist D which produced sharper images with it than my K-7.

I sent it back to Pentax for examination, but they shipped it back saying that nothing is wrong with it.

I sold that camera on ebay to get some money back, so I can buy a better camera. I am not surprised if a pentax fanboy won it and goes to rave about it.

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